Gemma Livermore: Welcome to another episode of Seismic Sessions where we are going to dive into the shifts shaping the financial services industry. I’m Gemma Livermore, Head of International FS Marketing at Seismic.
Rachael Rowe: And I’m Rachael Rowe, Regional Vice President at Seismic. Today, we’re exploring how the role of the customer has evolved in financial services, moving from a simple satisfaction metric to becoming an integral part of the revenue team.
Joining us are two incredible guests with deep expertise in customer centric transformation. Mary MacPherson, Group Director, Customer at Bank of Ireland. And Oliver Parsons, Head of Ecosystems in Customer Propositions at Lloyds Banking Group.
Gemma Livermore: Great to have you both on this day. Mary brings over two decades of experience in financial services product and experience design, leading Bank of Ireland’s group customer strategy to deliver customer centric digital transformation and commercial growth.
Rachael Rowe: And Oliver is a digitally proficient leader at Lloyds Banking Group with a proven track record in delivering customer focused products, propositions, and innovations, as well as expertise in digital platforms, campaigns, and analytics. Together, they’ll help us uncover how financial services are redefining the customer’s role in driving loyalty, renewals, and business growth. As many of our regular listeners will know, we lean in on seismic terminology to help us define the structure of our podcast.
So we’ll be looking, first of all at the [00:02:00] tremors, what began this movement in the industry? Then where we are now, what is the epicentre? And then finally, moving forward to the quakes and what does the future look like? So before we start, being a podcast about enablement, we’ll ask all our guests, what does enabling financial services mean to each of you?
So if I could start with you, Oliver, please.
Oliver Parsons: It’s a really interesting question, isn’t it? So I think financial services in themselves are very enabling for the things that our customers want to do. So I think it’s about how you put the products in the customer journey for the customers at the right time and place to allow them to get the things they want to do.
So it’s almost sort of like enabling customers to be enabled to do the things they want to do would be how I’d kind of put it, which is a little bit of a mouthful. Yeah, that would be, for me, that’s where, you know, how do we get things at the right place in time? How do we make them contextually relevant so that the products are there when the customers need them, as opposed to thinking about them purely in [00:03:00] isolation.
Rachael Rowe: Great answer, Oliver. Thank you. Mary, over to you.
Mary MacPherson: So I think, you know, I, agree with Oliver entirely, and I think adding a little bit more from my perspective, I think, you know, enabling financial services is ultimately for customers and by putting customers at the heart of financial services, I think that is about us as an industry being genuine and humble, but equally innovative in our understanding and listening to customer needs.
And not only today is about listening to the customer’s needs, I think it’s also about the signals from other industries, the changes in technology. And the changes in all of our behavioural norms and becoming really attuned to those things.
Gemma Livermore: I love that. And as you know, today we’re obviously here to discuss evolving customer roles in financial services. I found it really interesting in my own career, seeing how that shift has happened and we have become so customer centric now. So that leads us nicely to start the big picture. What does putting customers at the heart of financial services mean to each of you?
Because that has, to your point, Mary, with behavioural shifts changed over time. Maybe if we can start with ourselves first.
Mary MacPherson: Yeah, of course. And, you know, maybe a bit of continuation from my intro there. I mean, I think, it’s about responding to signals and foresight and behavior changes, but absolutely having a really keen focus on needs and expectations and also regulatory implications as well. But I think it’s upon all of us to make sure that we are empowering customers via accessible services, so they can feel confident about their financial situation.
They’re informed to make good decisions. And I think part of our role is as well as, you know, investing in technology and data, new customer propositions. It’s also about investing in customer and societal education, banking basics, terminology, money literacy. and I suppose democratising some of the knowledge that we would have retained within banks, within our walls in [00:05:00] previous decades.
I think the second element for me in customer centricity is really thinking about our customer relationships for the long term. And I think at points, maybe a couple of decades ago, we really thought about customers at that point of product need or transaction. And I think it’s now about breeding that long term relationship that creates value both for us as the financial organisation and indeed for our customer.
And then I think of the final emerging piece, and I think we can discuss whether it’s emerging or not, right? But I think innovation is good. I think, you know, banking organisations have a huge opportunity to innovate, partner with different organisations to create an ecosystem of products and services, that create genuine value, to make it easy for all customers.
So those for me are some of the elements of what I think putting customers at the heart of financial services is.
Gemma Livermore: I love that and I love the idea of breaking down those silos between the financial organisations and the customers. So the relationships become more of a [00:06:00] partnership. And I think that’s really empowering in itself. Oliver, anything you’d add there or anything you’d like to build upon?
Oliver Parsons: Yeah, I really loved Mary’s point in point one around helping with financial education. I think keeping on that theme, I think it’s always important often in the bank to keep the customer in the room. So one thing we start to do is kind of assign a colleague to be the customer. I think it’s strange and I’ve worked both in financial services and in other sectors.
I think there’s a sort of strange thing that happens. To us , particularly retail banking professionals, where we go into the building and we kind of think, well, customers are highly rational in what they’re going to do. And they’re highly rational in their economic behavior. And it creates big blind spots.
And that’s where I think we need to be really realistic about that. You know, people aren’t always going to choose the best price and always going to make the best decision for themselves. In general, we’re not economically rational. We’re making decisions based on emotion. We’re making decisions about that.
Not necessarily always make sense, but because we’re in a highly numerous industry, we tend to think in these really highly rational terms. So taking a much more holistic view of the customer and thinking about, actually, I often find myself saying to colleagues, well, hang on a minute, if something like brand doesn’t matter, or your kind of emotion doesn’t matter, why are you driving a BMW, not a Dacia?
Like, let’s try and think about actually, why do we make those decisions we make and then build that in so we can have fairer outcomes for the customer and better outcomes for them and help them have, I guess, better lives.
Rachael Rowe: I love the way you’re framing that there, Oliver, because it’s, it’s far more complex than just kind of democratising information to borrow a great word from Mary. and I think if we, just move to the tremors, now and kind of lean in a little bit to some of the things that you’ve brought up there, you talked about working in other industries.
And I think, you know, we’ve seen the role of the customer has undergone a significant evolution. And if we look at the world of technology, the world of retail, for example, they’ve really been front runners in embracing this shift in consumer requirements and the kind of experience that customers want to receive.
And I think it’s fair to say it’s no longer about checking a satisfaction box. It’s not just a tick box exercise. It’s really about [00:08:00] driving loyalty and influence. So I think, digging into that, Mary, you’ve led custom strategy initiatives at the Bank of Ireland. How have you seen the perception of the customer evolve over the years? And what do you identify as having sparked this shift?
Mary MacPherson: I think you’re absolutely right and, you know, I was reflecting on this a bit and I think if I wind back to About 2010, I headed up strategy and architecture and, in a bank and we’re putting in a new complaints platform across the entire enterprise. and at that stage, it was the first time we started talking about customer and colleague requirements, as opposed to business and technology requirements, even though the outcome was the creation of a new platform.
And so I think we can definitely chart the last 15 years from, you know, being technology first or commercial first to being more, customer first. And I think that comes through in their strategies. And I think, you know, looking back a lot of the [00:09:00] time, customer strategies were very much commercial focused.
How would we sell more? How would we reduce complaints? And these are all completely valid things. How do we meet more needs, provide better service? But in many ways, the way in which we solve for those things, were from a cost and commercial perspective, as opposed to something that might be, genuinely, customer centric.
And so I’ve probably thought about four different shifts that I think about. So number one, and it’s very, very obvious, people, consumers, you and I have got more choices than ever before when it comes to our banking, wealth, insurance. And I think, there have been times in the past where we as an industry, beyond Bank of Ireland, beyond LBG as well, we’ve probably been a bit complacent and that customer would stay for life, a bit like we used to in terms of a job for life.
And now all of a sudden the commodity that is the customer, that revenue stream, if you will, can’t be taken for granted. And so I think, you know, shift number one is that customers started to [00:10:00] move and you had to really think about what it was to appeal, engage, create value for them and retain them ultimately.
I think the second shift, is in the age of digital, that increased competition has also really created the rise of the apps and also changed expectations and that’s exponential change, right? digital first organisations. have typically always started with the customer and the customer problem.
And yes, of course, they’ve got incredible technology stacks and modern data capability, but they really start with customer problems and solving them in a different way. And I think that has sparked a change in terms of how we approach thinking about customers and solving their issues. I think the third shift for me is, again, if I was to go back a decade, when we talked about customers, it was very much in that customer service, the contact centre or complaint space.
and I now think customer is something far more holistic, far more deeply [00:11:00] intertwined with technology and commercial management, but actually is a uniting purpose that chose first entire financial service organisations and it’s about experiences and it’s about journeys. And I think, you know, Oliver’s picked up already how it’s about thinking about customers in that long term and end-to-end journey piece.
And I think the fourth and final shift for me, if I may, would be in and around skills and capabilities. So, the way in which we thought about customers, I’ve said it’s about service, but then, in a non customer facing perspective, back off as we think about products and pricing. But now we’ve brought together design, research, engineers, people that are really working together with different methods and tools that really put customers at the heart of that end to end transformation cycle, if you will.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, and One thing I found really intriguing, and Oliver, I’d like to come to you on this, is it makes perfect sense to put clients at the centre of everything that we’re doing, not just emotionally and on a human level, but obviously now we see that that [00:12:00] then breeds loyalty to your point, Mary.
People do have the ability to move around a lot more now, and by putting them at the heart of it does breed loyalty and so on. So that brings me to the FCA’s consumer duty. What do you think made the FCA want to stand up and put something in place to ensure that organisations are held responsible and accountable for delivering better outcomes?
And do you think that will actually change how we look at the client going forward, Oliver?
Oliver Parsons: I think it’s really interesting consumer duty because I think all the things that Mary’s just talked about that they’re almost if you think particularly about retail banking, there’s almost been this journey where it was incredibly customer centric you think kind of the 50s and 60s you had the bank manager he knew who you were, it was a relationship business and then we underwent a kind of change where some of that branch network service stuff got viewed as a cost rather than as a benefit, and as rather as a kind of comparative advantage against some of the neobanks, I guess. And, we’ve then gone through, what, 10, 15, 20 years where, where there’s been that direction of change, where you’ve been taking some of that stuff out.
And then we’ve all kind of woken up [00:13:00] and said, ah, right, actually, that is our differentiator. That is the thing that brings better outcomes for the customer. Why have we done that? And I think consumer duty is part of the regulators response to all of that as well. It’s like, how do you address things like, I know it’s many years ago now, but things like Wonga, payday lending, all of those types of things.
How do you make clear and understandable products where perhaps people aren’t that rational, you know, how do you make it fairer for customers? How do you make sure they get better outcomes? And I think there’s a lot of positives in it. Like, presenting a lot of options, presenting them in a clear way that it’s understandable to the customers, letting customers make the right choice for them.
I think it’s a really positive thing. I think it will be interesting. to see as we go through how the regulation is applied, because I think there are a lot of, kind of, open areas in it that are open to interpretation and open to how you do things. But I find it really heartening that you see something like consumer duty coming in, where we’re saying, right, these outcomes for the customer need to be fair, because then it means that everyone in financial services organisations is thinking about this and thinking about doing these things in the right way.
So I think [00:14:00] it’s part of a kind of wider sector led change towards recognising the things that perhaps we’d perhaps gone too far in one direction and we’d sort of forgotten about the human element and about the customer element. So I think it’s a hugely positive thing.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. No, I, I hope it is. And I think, like you say, it’s heartening both as a consumer ourselves. And as an industry to add that layer of trust
that we needed to earn back.
Mary MacPherson: I think it is. I might just, do I think though, we also need to be careful, as an industry, we have been deeply regulated for forever, right? And rightly so. And I think with consumer duty, like all regulation, we need to make sure that we don’t make it a tick box exercise from a compliance perspective, and you know, much of what you’ve talked about there, Oliver, is, in many ways, hygiene, norm, table stakes, or at least should be.
And I think one of the things that I would urge all of us to do, whether we’re in retail banking or, or not, right? It’s about how we raise the bar and go beyond regulation to really provide exceptional, customer experience and outcomes. I’m also thoughtful that consumer duty maybe isn’t, you know, it’s not the only regulation.
We’ve got European Accessibility Act coming this year, and I think, that puts a further focus on how we ensure that we have got inclusive and accessible banking services, and probably, you know, pushes us again further to be thoughtful about the entirety of our customer base in a way that, is beyond, product and really thinking about how we do the right thing for all customers all the time.
Oliver Parsons: I just think, you know, in the question, you’re also asking about how you hold organisations accountable as well. And one of the things I really hope with consumer duty is that, that it’s clear that everyone’s being held to the same accountability because, you know, with digital innovation, and I won’t use financial services example, but if you look at how, say London black cabs are regulated versus Uber, like there is a disparity between the regulation.
And I think for consumer duty to really work and to do exactly as Mary says, allow us as an industry to go above and beyond. It needs to be applied [00:16:00] fairly across everyone. And I realised, the irony being sat here working at LBG saying something like that, but like, I do think if you allow smaller players to have a bit of a wider scope, you are only going to create more problems for the customer and the longer term.
And I understand that you want to stimulate growth and you want to stimulate the sector, but it needs to be applied equitably and fairly across the whole sector for it to be truly successful.
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you kind of allude to a really important factor there that sort of embracing a customer first approach is often easier said than done, particularly for large organisations. And I’d be interested, Oliver, as you’ve worked across diverse brands, particularly, what early challenges did organisations face in trying to achieve just that in your experience?
And how have those experiences of yours really shaped your current strategies?
Oliver Parsons: It’s interesting, and if I start, this will sound pretty odd to the audience but I’ve, I’ve worked for a bicycle saddle manufacturer previously, probably part of the largest group of saddle manufacturers in the world. Like, it’s much easier to put yourself in the customer’s shoes in an environment like that, because many people are doing that job as a passion player.
Many people are cyclists. So. in one of the brands, we developed a new product. So it was a very, it’s kind of heritage rich brand, a lot of handmade manufacturing, we developed a product with carbon fibre rails. and you know what, we all just rode the saddle. We gave it to a hundred people we knew who were influencers or people we sponsored, and we got feedback directly.
I ran the MPD research on that. Like it was very easy to do. I think my first point for financial services, it’s very difficult. It’s much more difficult in many ways, because we are all part of the audience and financial services are an enabler for our day to day lives. Like money is a wonderful tool that you have to have, like it’s one of human beings greatest dimensions, but also because of the complexity of the way products are built and the way in which we make our income, we then come into the bank and we’re in our kind of banker mode.
And that’s what causes a bit of the challenge, I think for FS. But I do think having been in FS organisations and then left and then come back four years later, I think we are getting better [00:18:00] and better at that. But I do think that like that disparity between what is a tool for day to day life versus what is something, you know, clothing, bicycle products, running, whatever those other things are, it’s so much easier because it’s a kind of contained moment in your life where you’re doing something, whereas financial services is basically underpinning everything you’re doing and enabling you to live a life.
And I think that, bizarrely, that makes it harder to think about it, and I think just to overcome it, you know, it’s spending time with customers. It’s giving yourself that time to go and talk to people about the experiences they have. Go and spend time, I don’t know, like I was talking to a colleague and they’d gone and spent time, it sounds quite creepy, but like at the doorway of B&M asking people going into B&M, you know, the kind of discounter, what they were feeling about money, how they were going to pay that day, like really begin to understand what people are doing outside of the four walls of the organisation, whether that’s through insight teams, whether that’s directly yourself.
And then you, it’s uncomfortable, but over time you realise people are quite comfortable talking about these things. They’re not comfortable talking about their salaries or their pensions necessarily, but they are comfortable talking about their feelings and emotions about how they use money, why they use money and the, and the decisions they make.
Gemma Livermore: And I think it’s also about bringing that diversity in house, isn’t it? And you bring up a great point there yourself, and you’ve showcased it first hand the fact that you’ve come from a different industry and then come into financial services is really refreshing in itself.
Because if we start mirroring, and not just trying to find out about consumer’s needs, but actually bringing those consumer needs in house and understanding it first hand, that’s where we can really make a change and move forward. And, you know, I think back in my own career, I’ve always worked in financial services. I don’t have a good bicycle story, unfortunately, unless I go back to my teenage years. But I look back at when I started, like 20 odd years ago and quite often I was the only female in the room and the only person from my background in the room. And it’s really nice to now see that that’s not the case. There’s real diversity of thoughts coming in and then that challenges us, doesn’t it? It’s not just about having challenger banks, it’s about having challengers within each bank to drive to be customer centric and understand different customer needs. And I’ve found that really refreshing over the years.
Rachael Rowe: I like that little phrase there, Gemma. I’m going to borrow that one. Challenges within each bank. It’s good.
Gemma Livermore: So I think we’ve covered a lot of this, but what I’d like to just end on while we’re in this tremors phase is It’s breaking down the internal silos because, you know, you both here today work on a customer side of the division, but how do we work with other parts of the company to ensure that we’re all heading in the same direction and putting the client first, whether you’re in the client side of the business or not?
Mary, if I could come to you.
Mary MacPherson: I think my experience, and I’ve probably worked for financial services companies, right, and a little bit of consultancy over the last 20 years, and I think there has been quite a dramatic shift in terms of how we organise within financial services and putting customer at the [00:21:00] heart.
And I think, one way in which we’ve done that is, taking people who yes, work in customer, but pairing them, say designers, working with engineers, working with data analysts, and really coming together around value streams or platforms and really making the outcome. aligned for every single skill and capability to be quite often a customer outcome.
And so I think, we have overcome silos and of course there is a long way to go. And I think one thing I’ve observed is, for example, within retail banking, I think it is becoming more commonplace that, for example, if someone’s thinking about getting a mortgage, we know that there is a savings component to that. We know there are insurance requirements. There is credit decisioning and credit bureau data. And actually there are lots of products and services that we can kind of bring together. And so we’re breaking down silos to think about that overall experience creation proposition for a customer.
I think the next realm, and we’re all working out this, and I do see that is helping, identifying and, and bridge silos that might be retail, commercial banking, private banking, insurance. And I think that’s more difficult because systemically we’ve been set up as separate businesses and our, you know, data can be separate, the systems that we use are separate.
But I think that the next real focus area is how we really see a customer as the Bank of Ireland or the Lloyds Bank customer as opposed to the retail customer versus the wealthy customer and really give them an experience that is holistic and reflective of all the relationships that they’ve got with us.
Oliver Parsons: I love it, Mary. You’ve just made me think about things. My first kind of job in FS was like 15, 15 or so years ago. I entered, I’d done some other sort of weird stuff at the beginning of my career, like media production and documentaries, but I’m really struck by your talking about design there. Like I remember us, we would talk a lot about the customer, but you would never have a design function like you have now. And when I came back, I went into the cycle industry. We would work with people at IDEO who are obviously huge on the kind of human design we created bags and we created products with them.
And then when I came back into financial services, I was really struck by how there were big design teams now. And there were kind of designers who you could help, who could help you from a kind of customer proposition or a. marketing perspective to kind of unify the different elements of the bank and bring people together to understand those journeys.
And you see that everywhere now that the presence of design is much more front and centre, and then much more there to help enable that full holistic customer thinking across the journey and keep you honest, right? They keep the product teams honest to think about. Actually, if we help you here, this will also help this other part of the business here and how we think about that as a whole.
I do think that’s been a really noticeable change for me.
Mary MacPherson: Yeah, and I think, it’s almost like we have got to a place where we welcome a little bit of, you know, positive friction is the, the phrase that is used maybe too often, right? But, bringing something like design into the main space of everyday transformation means that there are difficult conversations and compromises to be made.
And I think, again, that comes back to us all wanting to achieve a better outcome for, for the customer.
Rachael Rowe: It feels like this is a good point to move to where we are today. So if we’re thinking in terms of the epicentre, if you like, I think it’s fair to say that most financial services organisations have come to the realisation that to deliver best in class client experience requires a broader ecosystem, not just in terms of breaking down silos internally, but also building stronger partnerships, relationships, and a broader base, around.
end customer. So I think let’s examine the digital tools, technology and partnerships that really have helped transform the customer’s role into a critical driver for loyalty and rewards, for financial services. And so I think if I come first to you, Mary, with your experience in digital transformation, how have technology and customer ecosystems really enabled financial services to create more meaningful customer connections?
Mary MacPherson: I think it’s work in progress, but, you know, one of the things I’m really proud of at Bank of Ireland is how closely the group customer office and chief digital office work together, hand in hand on a continual basis. And I think it’s a great example of how technology and customers are really becoming one, if you will, and you can’t have one without the other.
I think I’d probably add more elements though to customers and technology. I think the other elements are maybe to really create ecosystems that provide that customer connection, there’s probably three others for me. One is data. You know, I think data can be a great unifier.
Of course, technology, API technology, enables that transfer of data. There’s a huge element. I think something that is less talked about, but really, really important in the way in which we create ecosystems for connection is changes in risk, appetite and policies, because you can do great things from an experienced design perspective.
and technology, but ultimately if we don’t continually evolve our policies and risk appetites, that really kind of prevents the optimisation of what we can do in that space. And then finally, you know, I think we’ve touched on it already, the way in which we organise, has really changed to really breed that ecosystem thinking.
And I think technology data analytics have all given us a wonderful opportunity to know and understand our customers and increasingly personalise how we connect in a really meaningful way that creates value as opposed to maybe thinking about how we get a sales lead out of this as an example. I think the other thing, we’ve kind of fostered increased trust because technology and ecosystems allow us, I think, to operate more real time. There is less prevalence of batch processes and things are more instantaneous and I think that creates connectivity, trust, and also a level of loyalty.
I think I’m also thoughtful about how we have created through ecosystems more and more end-to -end seamless experiences. I think seamless is, you know, a word de jure in banking and financial services. But ultimately, I think it’s important not only for customers, but also creating connectivity with our colleagues and allowing our colleagues, particularly in maybe contact centres and in branches to be able to continue and have great conversations with customers, but have that full understanding of what they’ve done from a digitally previously, or how they behave and can kind of operate with greater insight, if you will.
And I think the final thing that I would add here is, I think API technologies in parallel with open banking regulation lay down, I guess, the optimum opportunity that I still think we’re trying to take ultimately as an industry to navigate really great end to end experiences. And I think that the ability for technology and data, like data sharing with consent, can really unleash a whole new level of customer experience delight, ease for them, and also, end speed. So those are some of the things I think, the way in which customer and technology have come together. I think the final thing, if I may, would be you know, we need to be thoughtful about technology changing all the time, you know, multi modal interaction, going from touch to voice, generative AI, agentic AI, blockchain.
These are things that are going to further leapfrog customer experience. And on that basis, we’re going to have to work really hard as customer professionals alongside technology professionals to leverage these new technologies in tandem with the speed of adoption by consumers, I think, and really think about how that evolves, you know, with the future ecosystem of engagement, interaction and connection.
Gemma Livermore: love that. Oliver, can I come to you now? And if we talk to you with your hat on as Head of Ecosystems and Customer Propositions, how do partnerships and digital innovations influence customer loyalty and retention at LBG?
Oliver Parsons: So I think there’s obviously two sides to that and I think Mary made a really interesting point about kind of data and I don’t know whether you use the word propensity models but almost like these propensity models we use for sales so if you look like this you’re going to take an insurance now and I think we’ve gone quite heavy in that direction as an industry and I think what partnerships can allow us to do is create these kind of contextually relevant journeys that present the product at the time the customer needs it.
So you look at someone like Revolut with their stays, ecosystem, I guess, you know, they can then layer in travel insurance at the right time. They’re not having to use propensity modeling. And I think for really good marketing in that sense, it needs to be a combination of the two.
And we perhaps focus quite heavily on the one side and what those partnerships do is allow you to have some of that data exchange with people who might be specialists in another vertical. And then that allows you to then present to the customer, the right thing at the right time. And also I think we have such large data sets in financial services that sometimes.
You know, understandably, it can be difficult for us to pick out the signals because there [00:30:00] is so much there in these partnerships, you can both build journeys that leverage the capabilities of both and present the financial services as the enabler at the right time. But you can also leverage that experience and expertise on both sides to find those signals in the data and create the right thing.
So you know, we are here to enable people to do the things they want to do. You know, like, you know, there’s that cliche, isn’t there? People don’t want a mortgage. They want to buy a home, you know, and you can do that with almost every single product. And the partnerships really allow you to open this up contextually so that you present at the right time to the right customer.
And then you can have that blended marketing approach where you are doing that propensity modeling. You are doing personalisation, but also you’re saying like, Okay, someone who’s, I don’t know, someone who’s reading Runners World is likely to be interested in a runner’s shoe. Like you can do a bit, you can do both, and then you’ll probably see that you’re going to get much better outcomes for the customer.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. And I think those feedback loops are only going to get more powerful as time goes on and we’re collecting more data. We’ve seen some really interesting AI and enablement tools, enabling client-facing teams to be able to bring that to the forefront as and when it’s needed. So it feels less disingenuous, you know, more personal.
Oliver Parsons: I think that’s one of the most exciting things with AI as well, isn’t it? Like, I think at a kind of macro level, we tend to think about it as the talking about telling you these things, and we think about ChatGPT. But actually, that ability of AI to dive into data and process it very quickly in a way that would take an analyst a lot longer, the way in which it will speed up the behaviour of analysts or marketing professionals or people looking for those triggers and interactions is really fascinating.
We should be able to be much better. At a macro level at dealing with that volume of data through some of these tools that are coming down the line.
Gemma Livermore: Completely. And that’s it, isn’t it? AI is very good at solving big data problems. Humans are very good at solving small data problems. You put the two together and you’re just creating that perfect storm, aren’t you? In terms of getting things personalised at the right time and bringing it to the forefront.
I love it. I’m very excited by that part, which is why the aftershocks are always my favorite part, Rachael.
Rachael Rowe: Nicely segwayed there.
Gemma Livermore: It was, yeah.
Rachael Rowe: Moving to the aftershocks then, Gemma, looking at here really is where we see movement and change in the future. And obviously this is something very dear to our hearts at Seismic because weaving AI into those workflows is really key to what we’re able to bring to the table with our customers. And so I think if we look ahead to the future of financial services, I think that most would agree that the demand for customer centric innovation and collaboration is likely to intensify the requirement for hyper personalisation, if you like.
Gemma Livermore: Definitely with the wealth transfer coming up as well, Rachael, as you know, we’ve spoken about a lot. You’ve got these new generations demanding so much more personalisation on different scales.
Rachael Rowe: Exactly. And that’s where tech comes in, because that is what really helps to deliver on that in a cost effective, efficient way. And I think, coming to you first, Mary, as these customer expectations continue to evolve, how do you see the role of customer strategy shaping financial services over the next decade?
Mary MacPherson: Yeah, and I think, you know, we’re right to say customer expectations, but also regulatory and societal expectations are going to continue to shift, we can, and I don’t think we are for one moment at Bank of Ireland or any other, bank or FS organisation globally are standing still, I think though if we, we look ahead and how customer strategy can create value is one of the continuation and deepening of that intertwine of customer strategy with data technology and commercial strategies.
It can’t be out in a silo. It needs to be deeply in and around all the other strategies and considerations in an organisation. I think increasingly customer strategy needs to be proactive, nimble and ambitious. That’s not to say it hasn’t been in the past, but it’s interesting, isn’t it? And it goes back to that AI and that ability to kind of pull out trends and data and insight in a way that we haven’t.
I think we need to rapidly be listening for signals more often. And I think having compelling strategies that are short, medium and long term, almost, you know, simultaneously is going to be really important. Because I think the art of writing something down on a, I don’t know, a five year horizon It’s a deeply challenging thing to do, so we need to be thoughtful about how our strategies are proactive and really in part, demonstrate a new confidence in and around experimentation and innovation, and be very thoughtful about how we use technologies to foster new and different customer experiences in the future.
And so on that point, I think, you know, foresight has definitely been an emerging part of the design and research spectrum in the last couple of years. And I think more of that will need to come to the fore so that our strategies are illuminating where we partner, where we experiment. I think the other thing for me is we, we also can’t and shouldn’t, we shouldn’t be apologetic for that articulation of the commercial opportunity.
That customer centricity brings, and make sure that’s also coupled with a really strong customer outcome orientation. You know, we’ve talked today about consumer duty, the task and requirement to evidence that will only get greater. And we should be ahead of that curve. I think another thing that we need to think about from a customer strategy perspective is an evolving approach to segmentation.
Again, we talked about data, expectations, different generations, hyper personalisation. That hyper personalisation, you know, segment of one has been something that’s been talked about. But really, how do we be meaningfully relevant to every individual customer? And so how do we set that strategy, which might be thinking about how we serve the multi million customer base we have, but treat everyone as an individual.
And I think the final thing I would say is, our strategies need to be open and really thinking about the partnerships that we hold and also thinking about where customers are placing their brand loyalty and trust. And by that I mean I think a decision point and customer strategy comes into this is who we want to play with and where we all want to position within other people’s ecosystems as well as their own on the go forward.
Gemma Livermore: I love that and I love the idea of being proactive. I feel like in the past there has been more of a reactive side to customer centricity. So it’s really nice to see that proactive side coming out. Oliver, if we turn to you at this point with ecosystems becoming increasingly integral, what do you think is the next big opportunity for financial services to deliver insight driven customer outcomes?
Oliver Parsons: I’d love the way Mary started talking about, you know, kind of inside financial services and outside at the end there as well, because I think embedded finance has been that big change, hasn’t it? It’s almost kicked, you know, it’s a new innovation. It’s kicked a lot of us into action. And it’s how you build those ecosystems, both in your own environment, but also place yourself in the environment of others.
and I think the speed of that change is only going to get faster. And I think that again, also points to the point Mary’s making about nimble strategies as well. Like the speed of change, you know, it’s a cliche, isn’t it? It is getting faster and faster and faster. And when you think about how the world was in 2018 versus now, and you actually take that time to do a reflection exercise, a lot has changed and a lot of new brands have emerged and a lot of new technology, a lot of new, digital apps that you probably engage with have emerged.
And I think that stuff creates big opportunities. And I think one thing I was reflecting on when you were talking, Mary, it’s actually, we tend to be quite risk averse about new technologies. and actually that risk aversion, Tends to sit in the technology teams, right? Like it sits in your kind of CTO or whatever.
And actually what I am beginning to see is they’re beginning to be much more open and much more ready to innovate, much more ready to test and learn. Like we should be much more confident about having a small cohort of customers where you can do a bit more experimental things, where there is that, you know, for big institutions like LNG and Bank of Ireland, like our levels of trust are very, very high.
I think I once read a book. Customer research thing that said we were like the slightly boring uncle at a party, but that also gives us a right to be a bit more dynamic and a bit more, you know, the way Monzo had that cohort of customers on a message board, actively developing the product. There’s no reason why the bigger organisations can’t be doing that.
can’t be doing that. And, actually, in some ways, a much more effective way. So I think it’s hugely exciting. I think we also begin to match data sets as well with other providers. You know, we begin, you think about something like mobility, you can see where people are traveling from day to day. Are there ways in which we can help them understand?
Should I get public transport today? Or should I use my car that you’ve gone by? There’s a whole host of things that can be done with data that would be very, very exciting.
And I think it’s just, you know, it’s pushing ourselves from being, you know, risk is the business we’re in. and if we weren’t, everyone would be keeping money under their bed rather than in the bank.
But it’s balancing that kind of core tenet of what we’re about, which is security, safety with an ability to leverage the new technology to more seamlessly integrate into people’s lives. It’s relevant and also to avoid, frankly, us becoming even further commoditised. You know, you will see the big digital players.
You see the kind of Googles of this world. You see the Apple wallets. They are taking our products. They’re taking the core data sets and they’re pulling it into their environment and they’re leaving us with all the operating costs. You need to be able to counter that in ways that are customer centric, that deepen relationships, that make people feel we’re on their side.
And that’s exciting. And there’s a real opportunity here, and there’s also finally to kind of loop back round to probably why I said at the beginning, like with things like AI and with some of the tools that are emerging, we can find those quirks and anomalies in the data. That helps us really understand why customers are doing things because I think we tend to come to an assumption of, well, there’s a price lever here.
People are taking the cheapest price and it just isn’t always the case. There are ways of having those deeper relationships as a way of, I guess, rebundling the relationship. And I think with where technology is going, those opportunities are going to become bigger, better, not necessarily easier to get through, but, you know, it’s exciting.
Gemma Livermore: So do you think there’ll be a lot more investment in client centric technology going forward in the banking industry?
Oliver Parsons: For someone in my job, and I’m sure it’s the same for you, Mary, I certainly hope so, but I’m always very wary of making predictions.
Mary MacPherson: I mean, yeah, I think from my perspective, I think there will be continued investment. Fortunately, unfortunately, you know, to your point is that we work in a money business, a risk business. We operate, of levels where we have societal impact and rightly, yes, customers should be, you know, a priority area for investment, but there are many areas that I think we need to continue to invest in, to stay on top of the, the multiple levels of change, you know, beyond the topics we’ve been talking about today as well.
Oliver Parsons: Mary, you’ve hit a really important point that I think sometimes when we get really customer centric, we forget that a lot of our customers, their pension funds will be invested in us as organisations. So how we responsibly do this stuff whilst keeping the business growing, keeping the pension funds going, there’s a, you know, at Lloyds, we talk about helping Britain prosper and that’s multifaceted. So how do you do that in a responsible way is, it part of the challenge, I
Rachael Rowe: It’s fascinating that this has been such a great conversation, and I do feel that, you know, we could really dig into this for a lot longer. I’d like to thank you both for joining us today. It’s been a really enlightening conversation about the evolution of customer roles in financial services and the innovations that are driving this transformation.
So thank you both for your time.
Gemma Livermore: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in.
Mary MacPherson: Thanks for having us.
