Rachael Rowe: Welcome to another episode of Seismic Sessions, where we delve into the dynamic world of financial services with industry leaders. I’m joined as always by my colleague Gemma. Welcome Gemma.
Gemma Livermore: Hello, Rachael.
Rachael Rowe: Today we are joined by Nils Hafner, an expert in B2B sales strategy and customer journey optimisation. Nils brings over 15 years of experience in transforming sales processes and enhancing customer experiences across various industries. Welcome Nils.
Nils Hafner: Hello,
Rachael Rowe: We are also joined by Adrian Whelan, Global Head of Marketing Intelligence Group at Brown Brothers Harriman, a privately held financial institution that has been a thought leader and solutions provider for over 200 years. Delighted that you could join us, Adrian.
Adrian Whelan: Delighted to be here, Rachael.
Gemma Livermore: Great to have our guests on board today. And I’m really looking forward to the session where we’re going to start looking at how we can modernise B2B sales. We’ll cover everything from the transition from multi channel to multi experience, why end to end customer journeys fail, and also look at how breaking down silos in marketing sales and services in financial services contributes to success.
Let’s kick off with the question that we always ask our guests at the beginning of every podcast, and that’s what does enabling financial services mean to you? If I can come to you first, Nils, what does enabling financial services mean to you?
Nils Hafner: Enabling financial services means for me that you are able to provide the customer with the right content at the right time, over the right touch point, means complying to the legal requirements, complying to the customer’s interests and complying to the different tasks, especially in B2B.
Gemma Livermore: Love that. And what about yourself, Adrian? What does enabling financial services mean to you?
Adrian Whelan: I think enabling financial services means ease of access in and out of, again, financial products. And I think that’s something that has never been more challenged, actually. Interesting financial services doesn’t exist in a silo or in an echo chamber. It’s part of society, and we’re seeing huge societal change in terms of demographics, in terms of expectation around technology and around access points.
So I think enabling access to financial services is something that’s the most critical delivery for a financial services firm.
Rachael Rowe: So our regular listeners will be aware that we break our podcast down into three different segments. And we’re drawing upon our seismic earthquake terminology. So we begin by looking at the tremors and looking at how customer journeys used to be and how they’ve evolved to the present day.
Then we’ll look at where we are at this point in time, the epicentre, if you like, and then we’ll move on to what comes next, the aftershocks, and where we see customer experience and the customer journey evolving in the future. So I think if we take this back to the tremors, and I think we probably all agree that customer journeys have evolved quite significantly over the last 10 years from a situation where customers tended to meet us where we were as financial organisations, very much the onus now is on meeting our customers where they are, and you know, through whichever channel or in whichever way they, they want us to engage with them.
So I think if we start by looking back at the customer journeys and how they used to look in B2B sales, and if I can come to you, Nils, maybe you could explain the difference between the traditional multi channel approach and the more modern multi experience approach in B2B sales.
Nils Hafner: Thank you, Rachael. Yes, looking at the past, especially at the multichannel approach that meant the financial institutions built a kind of a department for every channel itself. So every channel was responsible to sell to customers, was responsible for marketing, was responsible for sales and the channels in between were not very coordinated.
And so, that gave the customer the impression that he or she had to deal with different banks. And especially if you are in a B2B setup, where you have multiple actors, uh, on the customer side and on the, banking side or the financial institution side, I think it’s a big, big mix up.
And so, while we developed a little bit, to a multi experience today, um, that modern organisations tend more to build their apartments around content, for example. So they think about the whole customer journey. So when the customer doesn’t need content, where in the customer journey, the customer doesn’t want to want to speak with a bank or with the financial institution or the insurance.
Yeah. And on the other side, where is the the possibility to sell from the bank’s perspective. And so it does not matter which channel or which touch point, I like the, the term of touch points a lot more, the customer uses, it does not matter. It matters what the customer wants or needs at a certain point of time.
Gemma Livermore: That’s a really interesting approach to it. But I’d like to dig a little bit deeper in there, Nils. What do you think are the key drivers that pushed the industry to move from multi channel to multi experience? And how did that affect the customer expectations and influence?
Nils Hafner: I think the customer expectations are a cause for themselves are because customers experience are so much of integrated customer management from other actors. Yeah, take a glance into e-commerce, for example. You have to deal with very integrated companies. And on the other hand, I think the markets changed a lot.
That means the rule of the markets. So, banks have a lot of competition. Insurance companies have a lot of competition and customers judge, okay, who solves my tasks better than the other. And so, there is a rise in expectation on the one hand. And on the other hand, there are more and more possibilities, especially in the digital world to know what the customer wants and to know where the customer is at a certain point of time.
Rachael Rowe: Excellent. Thank you, Nils. I think that’s a really interesting perspective. And I think if we look at how we tie that into, sort of, in a practical sense, I guess, Adrian, how do you see the shift from multi channel to multi experience impacting in the asset management industry? So in your approach to engaging with clients as an industry.
Adrian Whelan: Yeah, so, and I think Nils touched on this. I think there’s been an evolution of every industry. Okay. And I go back to my financial services, asset management doesn’t exist in a silo. So I think, our customers and our customers’ customers expect a digital interface, first of all. So if you go back to the good old days, we used to try to sell single products, and that might be from the head of accounting or an accounting product to the head of accounting at our client. Or it might’ve been an FX product, which you go to the head of FX. Now, because both asset managers and their underlying clients expect to have a single user interface, so the shop window is digitised, a single iteration. What you’re having to do, and I love the word, you’re having to sell the experience. So if you add your specific experience or product into that, as part of the ingredients, you want that to be additive and add the, uh, customer’s experience and not detract from it.
And I think technology has really moved away from silos of fragmented, bilateral communications, number one and then move to multi person, multi experience sales. So this is, this is not unusual, in other facets of the world, but I think financial services is fast catching up that we’re actually looking more at say design thinking.
You might have one solution or have one conversation going about something, but you stop, you pause and say, well, actually, if you have a challenge with this report, have you a challenge with your entire data modelers? Is there a wider conversation that we can co-create a better experience for us and you and your underlying clients?
And I think that’s the kind of advent of, new sales and thinking about how we collaborate in financial services going forward.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, I think there is a lot of catching up to do in this industry and we can look to other sectors to see how we can do that. Are there any examples that you could give, Adrian, on how asset managers are successfully implementing that multi experience at the moment to enhance client interactions?
Adrian Whelan: Well, I’ll be very honest. I still think there are high pressures in asset management, specifically. There’s high pressures in terms of prospecting for clients, retention of clients, regulatory burdens, regulatory change. So a lot of the energy and intellectual property at the moment just goes into actually keeping the lights on, keeping the shop ticking over. A lot of people talking and very excited about new technology, such as AI, such as getting a, an integrated data fabric that can actually feed all systems and all reporting requirements, all clients touch points.
But I will be very honest, and this is not even controversial, I think asset management remains, for various reasons, uh, quite siloed. Even the midsize asset manager might have multiple outsourced partners. It might have multiple iterations of systems internally and, for such a simple business, it has quite a complicated technology stack.
And one thing we are selling to customers of that type is a more integrated data platform that you can then, once you have your data standardised and normalised, you can actually start using the data, where we’re all sitting on large banks of data, to actually try and do better in terms of the customer journey also, but the customer journey is often truncated and quite not seamless because of this data silos that we all have to operate with.
Gemma Livermore: Do you think there’ll be broken down over the years ahead or?
Adrian Whelan: Yeah, I do but I think it happens slowly because of the big word that I will always use, is regulatory. You know, there are high investor protections around data and what you can and can’t use their data for. And there are high, liabilities for getting it wrong. So I think we do need to be inspired by other industries and particularly e-commerce industries.
But if you’re looking at asset managers and banks in Europe, globally, but in Europe, they are very highly regulated about what they need to do. So operation resilience is just another kind of boring thing that, you know, can weigh against some of the cooler projects. You have to ensure, even if you’re bringing new tech and new client experience, that your operation resilience to deliver that service, and let’s be honest, financial service is a very important part of a person, a citizen’s life. It’s a social and societal good. And I think that gets forgotten sometimes. So we need to ensure that, if while we’re making it better, while we’re making it more technology led, that we still have strong governance and can make that customer experience more positive
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, completely agree.
Rachael Rowe: And that’s a really interesting tension, isn’t it, between sort of the regulatory aspect of things and needing or wanting to deliver, you know, a kind of those moments that matter, if you like, in terms of the customer or the client touch points with an organisation. And I think it brings us on quite nicely to our epicentre, which is really why sometimes those end to end customer journeys fail. And I think if perhaps we start to unpack that a little bit, Nils, if we look at the way things are today, why do you believe that a lot of these end to end or some end to end journeys fail?
Nils Hafner: If we look at the asset managers and the banks, they are all so occupied to fulfill all the requirements they have. They are so occupied and trying to avoid mistakes and trying to get the complexity out of their business. And so, I think most of the time there is literally no time for the customer.
And so, on the other hand, as long as nobody is moving in the industry, nobody sees the pressure to do the first step. And so, especially here in Switzerland, we have so much called a smart follower strategy, that means do nothing until you see a pressure from the competition. And so this is, this is one point.
The other point is, we still see high profits in this industry. And, as long as we do so, uh, there’s another lack of pressure. And the third thing is talking about silos. I think, Adrian pointed it out quite, quite nicely. We we have the situation that we have a lot of silos, especially in B2B.
And we have to bring all together, not just from the data perspective, but also from the collaboration perspective, so you can focus on an integrated customer journey. Yeah. And especially on content and especially of conversation or on conversion. And so this is the main problem I see today. Uh, so a lack of time, lack of pressure and, silos from an organisational perspective.
Gemma Livermore: Are there any takeaways there Nils that you’d give our listeners on how they can try and avoid those failures? Yes.
Nils Hafner: For sure, it is about, to establish a kind of rules of the game. Yeah. And, for that, you need an integrated perspective on data and on the organisation. That means, you should, you should know about the customer journey and you should organise around the customer journey. And today we have the tools that make it possible to organise around the customer journey and to bring, or to yeah, to build an organisation that fits to the complexity of a customer journey in B2B, especially when we’re talking about sales of a financial services products. And so, this is the first step. So first step is, what I say, architecture, yeah. Build the architecture around our, uh, try to define the rules of the game, try to define the governance on how you work with the customer.
And then try to seek the buy in or, on the other hand, the executive sponsorship. And I think as long as we don’t have enough pressure, we will not see an executive sponsorship because, let’s face it, that will cost money.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah.
Rachael Rowe: So Adrian, in your experience, we’ve talked a little bit about regulation and compliance and the role that that plays in really shaping the experience that organisations deliver. How have you seen regulatory or compliance challenges, sort of impact on the failure of end to end customer journeys in asset management?
Adrian Whelan: Yeah, so I think regulation has always been a competing priority, right? It will always take first precedence, de-risking the system, not having regulatory sanctions. Well, unfortunately, you know, we’ll always find budget for regulatory demands rather than enhancing customer experience. That’s the way it’s been.
But what I do think actually, and regulation is actually a driver of innovation here, is that the whole mindset, I do understand that banks and asset managers now understand that we, if we had a blank piece of paper, what I call the blank piece of paper, that we wouldn’t have, we wouldn’t design the industry the way it is now.
It’s kind of been built up, iteratively been built up, kind of reactively being built up. But now that our customers and our customers, customers are very digitally savvy, I don’t like digital native, I don’t like some of the lingo around it, but they expect their life within financial services, regulation included, to be the same as the rest of their life.
Okay. So you’re getting your, your shopping groceries online and it just delivered. Like food delivery has lots of rules and regulations. So I think regulation has been used as a little bit of a shield, or an excuse, by the industry, the wider industry towards innovation. Well, I think it is changing and I’ll tell you why, because I think a lot of people are of the mind that, you know, design thinking is, is where a lot of financial services, marketing and sales teams are at, at the moment. We collectively, we by BBH’s sales team, we collectively read The Naked Sales by Ashley Welch and Justin Jones recently. And we find that really interesting because what that does is it starts actually with empathy. Now, that’s a weird place for a bank to start, but if you don’t understand the true challenge and requirements and needs of your customer, and you’re obsessed with your regulatory duties, you might be the most compliant bank or asset manager in the world, but you’ll have no clients. So I think people are starting to see that you need, why not both? And by enhancing that client experience, I think you can actually de risk, say the client onboarding experience, for example, that can reduce in turn other business deliverables, such as AML, KYC regulation. I’m starting to see a shift of mindsets that banks want to be relevant to their customers.
And if you optimise and increase the interactions with your customers, actually that helps all other lines of the business, including risk, legal and compliance.
Rachael Rowe: We’re seeing a change of stance with the regulator a little bit too I think when we look at things like consumer duty, for example, which is much more outcomes driven than perhaps other previous regulations have been and is, is really calling for a cultural shift in the way that organisations, sort of, wrap around the client and the client experience, within that.
So I know that’s more wealth management than asset management, but I think that the kind of the general spirit of regulation feels as though it’s also going in that direction a little bit, Adrian.
Adrian Whelan: No, absolutely. And one of the huge, um, and this is, this is cross sectors and financial services. One of the big debates at the moment is regulators focus on cost. The cost to deliver your service to the client rather than value. And if you don’t have positive customer interactions and regular customer interactions, you’re going to be just judged completely on cost.
Because you don’t, you’re not providing them value. And I go back to the empathy point, there’s no emotional connection between you and your customer. Then you’re just a utility or a commodity. And again, regulators can go to price. Whereas if you are genuinely part of the life and the experience of your clients, then value becomes easier to defend and a higher price point actually becomes easier to defend and it’s easier to grow your market share.
So again, if our industry doesn’t see that we need to stop the race to the bottom on cost, and we need to grow the pie. So we need more customers and more customers willing and understand what our proposition is. And that’s what design thinking really gets you into is to actually put yourself in the shoes of the customer and you can actually get paid a premium for that.
What’s not to love?
Gemma Livermore: Very true.
Rachael Rowe: I wanted to pick up on something that you mentioned earlier, Adrian, about if, you know, if you were going to create the asset management industry today, you wouldn’t create it perhaps the way it’s created now. How much do you think the organisational structure acts against delivering these memorable moments for the client?
Adrian Whelan: I think it’s hard to undo history, but there have been I’d say idiosyncratic, high profile, low impact events across the customer experience of financial services. And they have been regulated against those specific instances. I think regulators, the pendulum has swung way too far.
So if you look at any financial product that’s available, the amount of terms, conditions, disclaimers, different papers to be signed in essence. Now post COVID, we can actually digitally sign things, but there’s still too much information proffered on a regulatory basis to customers. And that’s a negative experience.
The other thing is intermediation. Regulators have decided that they put in these layers of intermediation advisors and lawyers in the financial process to protect the investor. I think if you have commonality of disclosure, if you have a plain English, understandable disclosures, I feel that most you’d have a greater client experience and understanding, and you still wouldn’t have the bad actors.
I think, both in the UK and Europe, they’re starting to look at that. We’ve created this highly regulated, highly disclosed documentational process for client onboarding. Is it actually necessary? Does any of the clients actually read the words that we’ve, put to protect them? The answer universally is no.
So if we could get, actually our first instance in regulatory financial services, understandable, plain English terms and conditions in a digitised format, that they can come in and out of funds much easier and at a lower cost. I think financial services would build more trust and credibility, number one with the client base.
And a lot of this expense is actually wasted expense around disclaimers.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, I’d love to hear your views on that, Nils. Yeah, I think this is this is kind of wishful thinking because until we wait on the regulators to change their attitude to financial services, I think we wait long. From my perspective, we had to automate a lot of things things context of the customer. And I think there are some helpful instruments around.
Nils Hafner: So, thinking about what does the client want? And on the other hand, what does the bank or the financial institution want? And so, we could see, uh, okay, what are the interactions that provide value to both? And, for providing value, you need time. You need time and capacities. That means on the other hand, you had to cut out something from the dialogue with your customers.
And I think there are a lot of dialogues who are not wanted by the customers or not wanted by the financial institution. And so, bring that in a kind of a matrix, uh, you couldn’t make a kind of a plan to do so. So focus on the, on the value providing dialogues and try to cut out the non value providing, contacts.
Yeah. That does not mean to get rid of the legal requirements, but, to make things a little bit more simple in communication and a little bit more automated, a little bit faster, that would be helpful.
Rachael Rowe: Just to pick, I know we’re going off piste a little bit here, but it’s quite an interesting topic, I think.
Nils, I just wanted to ask you a little bit. You talked about those valuable interactions, those valuable touch points with the customers. In terms of how organisations structure to deliver those, because, you know, it’s easier said than done, to look at kind of a non linear client journey and be able to step up and provide those moments of value all the way along those touch points. How do you envisage that. Do you have any thoughts around, kind of, the mechanics behind it?
Nils Hafner: Yeah, there are nice instruments, strategic instruments to do so. So, one of the most, known strategic instruments is the so-called Value Irritant Metrics. That’s an instrument developed by Amazon, 20 years ago. And so what Amazon did is, they made a list of all customer contacts of all touch points with the customer and then, they looked into if this is valuable touch point, a valuable interaction with the customer or not. And, next step is they looked from the perspective of Amazon and said, okay, uh, we just want to have contacts as Amazon where we can sell something, where we can learn something or where it’s just cheaper to provide a personal contact, instead of automation. Yeah. And so, they had in the end of two by two metrics. And so, they said, okay, this metric structures our portfolio of projects that means, uh, if the customer wants a contact and we as Amazon, as an organisation already know the answer.
Yeah. Then we put it to a cluster, called automate, yeah, all these classes could be automated to provide a fast answer to solve answers quickly. That means, for example, I need to find information about product X. Yeah. Here is all the information about product X, you could find it here.
Yeah. And the kind of a self service or an automated way, the content is provided to the, to the customer. On the other hand, if you have legal requirements, yeah, normally, the client does not want to have it. Yeah. But you are, obliged to, you have to fulfill this legal requirement. So the idea is, the, the company needs it and the customer does not want it.
So make it more simple. Yeah. Check in processes, onboarding processes, dialogues about all the legal requirements, et cetera. And then in the end, there are dialogues, especially in financial services you can make obsolete. That means, uh, if the customer does not find something on your website.
I work closely with an insurance company in Germany and the, the CEO of this insurance company says, okay, every email means that the website failed. Every email means that the website failed. Explain to the customer everything, what he wants to know about this on the website, on the digital customer, service centre and so they do not go into action.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. I think that’s a really good piece of advice there. The more that they can automate and do themselves, the better it is for everyone. And I think that starts to take us into this next part of the podcast where we can start looking at what silos we can break down for the future success as well. Nils, if we can first come to you, perhaps we can start looking about how we can integrate marketing and sales and services teams to contribute to the success of that end to end customer journey and breaking down those silos that currently exist within organisations.
Nils Hafner: So, first of all, I think we need common goals. Yeah, we need common, objectives for all the people working in sales marketing and customer service to make the client happy, on the one hand, and to provide him with the content, with a conversion and the conversations the customer, wants to have.
And so once we did this, so somehow painting the big picture. Yeah, we have to implement this. So, especially if we see that we have different departments, try to focus on what makes them fail to work together. Yeah. Fails in collaboration, a list of fails in collaboration is enormously helpful because you can see where it’s missing data, where it’s missing knowledge, where is missing competence, and then it’s to, to build this up, it’s a kind of a, of a change management. So I think we have all the, the instruments, we have all the tools in the toolbox to apply this, but in the end, you need to want it, the organisation has to want to tear down the silos and come up with an integrated customer journey.
Rachael Rowe: And I think, I think sort of building on that when we look, so Adrian, when we look at the asset management industry and we look at the way that asset managers leverage technology, and data has come up a few times in the conversation. I think that clearly has a role to play in how we break down those silos and the value that we can unlock when we break those down. What have you seen in terms of the way that asset management. Is approaching this this kind of uh, destruction of silos, in pursuit of the client experience?
Adrian Whelan: Yeah, I think they are. So , in my role, even in the sales process, I think I started by saying we used to sell a product, probably the decision maker of a department or a function. Those days are kind of gone. There’s interdependencies, both in asset managers and whomever they want to, um, everybody needs to know in essence, cause it has this domino effect.
If you change anything in the operational model, it’ll have upstream or downstream impacts. So what we’re seeing more and more is a demand at asset managers actually for self service. So on data, specifically, that we might be one provider to an asset manager, but they might have multiple providers. So they need to ingest and then, um, reuse and resend data from multiple touch points to multiple touch points.
So, I think what they want now is a repository that they house for all the departments and all their stakeholders that can go in and get that info data fabric and use it for their own means. The other thing is we’re in the sales process. If we are selling B 2B, we almost demand there aren’t any silos.
So we, we create what’s called a deal team, which is everybody we need on our side from sales, legal, marketing, SMEs on product. And we kind of people map that to the client. So the asset manager must bring their deal team also, because of these interdependencies. And that actually creates less of a tactical, single fix solution, and you can have a design thinking about, actually, I know we’re looking at this specific deliverable.
It might be a regulatory reporting deliverable, but can we talk about a wider data strategy here, and a UX experience that we could help you with, with your underlying clients? So I think silos, I’m not saying they’re a thing of the past. Of course, they’re not. But I think across the financial service ecosystem, people understand that that domino effect and interdependencies are only increasing and we’re trying to get single iterations of, data for everybody to use.
I think that’s the journey that most people are on, but that’s why I think it’s a hugely exciting time. I think people are going through change. I think co creation opportunities on both sides of the table. are huge, whereas they, that’s just not the way people’s heads were at before. So I think you’re quite often going from a particular discussion about something to a general discussion about how we can truly be business partners, um, co create for the future.
Gemma Livermore: I think that’s a really good way of looking at it, that co creation side. And at this point, I’d love to get both of your blue sky thinking of, if we look ahead of where we see the industry going on this topic in the next five to 10 years, what are your blue sky thinking of where, where it could go to?
Nils if we can come to you first.
Nils Hafner: It’s not easy, easy to say, but I think the fact that we are talking in this, this podcast here and that people are listening to it, makes somehow a better situation for the industry itself. So, think it will change, but it will change slowly and it has to do with cost and profits. As long as the profits are not affected by these silos, yeah, there will nothing change.
But on the other hand, I think it’s about the customer and the customer, especially in B2B, thinks about its own tasks at its own time and everything what costs time of the customer, what consumes time of the customer, the customer will not tolerate in the future. And so, um, I think it’s, it’s quite important to change.
And to think a little bit in terms of customer effort and reducing customer effort, within this change. And so this is not that very blue sky, but somehow cloudy blue sky.
Gemma Livermore: And Adrian?
Adrian Whelan: Yeah. Like I’m, I’ve got to, I’ve got to violently agree. I just think what customers of all types expect is a technologically led, seamless and frictionless experience from start to finish. And I think what, what does that mean then I think the old days of a silver tongued salesperson doing a pitch, I think we’ve spoken about this before, them days are gone.
What you really need to do is get both sides of the table. Everybody that has a vested interest in this being successful, sitting down and brainstorming. It’s a two way street. I think tactical proliferation of products on pitching products specifically, those days are gone. You really are looking at platform strategies.
You really are looking at client experience in the broadest sense and trust, and you need a trusted, credible partner to do that. So I think partnership as well is just going to be hugely important going forward. And if you have a partnership, then you’re not pitching to each other. You are brainstorming about a collective, better future.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. For that collective benefit on both sides. It’s really interesting.
Rachael Rowe: So I think I think it’s clear and interesting from both those blue sky perspectives that integrating marketing, sales services, pulling down silos within organisations, is really instrumental for creating those effective end to end client journeys. And it also, it’s quite clear that technology has a role to play in modernising and innovating B2B sales as we look ahead.
Gemma Livermore: it really is and I could have gone on about this for so much longer, but we’re gonna round the session up now. And as our regular listeners know, we always round up the session by asking our guests to summarise today’s chat in one word, it’s hard. And then a short sentence to explain why they chose that word.
So, Adrian, if I could come to you first, what’s your takeaway word of today?
Adrian Whelan: Can I have two words?
Gemma Livermore: Go for it, you can join them together.
Adrian Whelan: Okay. Design thinking,
Gemma Livermore: I like that, design thinking. And why did you go with that one?
Adrian Whelan: I believe that’s co creation and collaboration is the future of financial services.
Gemma Livermore: I’d have to agree. And Nils, what’s your takeaway word?
Nils Hafner: For me, it’s value. It’s the value of the dialogues between customers and, asset managers, it’s the value of the time, of the customers. And it’s the value of integrated customer journeys.
Gemma Livermore: Value is a very good word. Rachael, what about yourself?
Rachael Rowe: Well, I’m glad Adrian asked for two. So I, I think I’m going to go for client centricity because I think it’s really having the understanding of the end client and what constitutes a good experience for them drives what, as an organisation, you know, you can deliver to your client base and that underpins the growth potential, I think.
Gemma Livermore: I like like that. I’m going to go for partnership. I really liked the point that Adrian made earlier where it’s, less about which side of the fence you sit, when we look forward, it’s more about that partnership and working together. And I really liked that. And I think it really fits into that consumer duty piece that we spoke about earlier as well of what customers and consumers are now expecting.
So I’ll go with partnership, but it was hard to choose. Thank you to our guests today. As I say, I found it very interesting and could have carried the conversation on for a lot longer. So thank you for coming and sharing your insights. They are very valuable and I’m sure that our listeners would agree.
Adrian Whelan: Welcome. Thank you.
Nils Hafner: Thank you.
